Reader has A LOT to say about Chuck Baldwin
Monday at 2pm the Live Discussion Begins On the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Christian Zionism
Two years ago, a reader excoriated me about wanting to read Dennis Prager’s commentaries on the Bible.
He said Dennis Prager doesn’t understand the Bible (not even the Old Testament, not even the Books of Moses), because Dennis Prager does not understand Jesus.
Well lo and behold, after a month and a half of painstakingly reading the Bible everyday alongside the commentaries of Dennis Prager, I was flabbergasted at how right this fellow was.
It was a hard slap in the face for me, but I swear to you, this guy was spot on about Prager in a way I could never have imagined.
Well here that reader returns with A LOT to say on the topic of Chuck Baldwin and how erroneous his interpretation of scripture is on the modern state of Israel.
At the same time, he considers an estimated 2/3 of American evangelicals to be in serious error as well.
And he explains how nefarious the Modern State of Israel as we know it actually is.
If you read to the end, this guy will blow your hair back. Though he is critical of Baldwin, I suspect he does not realize how much he agrees with Baldwin.
That being said, I remain undecided on the matter, and as long as people can remain civil to each other, I’m ready for our next live discussion on the topic, starting Monday.
Much of my work since 2020 has been about rebuilding community.
Civil discussions on hard topics are part of that.
I invite you to join in here: https://realstevo.com/baldwin2
Also, the lengthy email below is an insightful read.
A reader writes:
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Hi Allan,
Hope you're doing well. Thanks for all you do for medical freedom, liberty in general, and reading the Bible online every day.
I'm saddened to see you support the ideas of Chuck Baldwin on Israel without challenging them. He's dead wrong on all of it. I know he's a patriot, and in the black robed regiment and all that, but he's wrong on Israel. I went to [the December class website] and read the first part about the December meetings and also the email below and I didn't see anybody's name taking the other side. Sounds very one-sided to me.
Dr. Michael Brown, PhD completely refutes all his arguments, not Chuck's specifically, but others that share his point of view. Here's a screenshot of some of the YouTube video debates Dr. Brown has done with Gary Demar, Munther Isaac, Gabriel Finochio, Don Preston, and Jeff Durbin.
Christian Zionism is in no way dependent upon Dispensationism or Scofield or Darby, etc. It's just the correct interpretation of scripture.
Here's just a small sample of non-dispensationalist preachers, going back to John Owen in the 1600's, that preached the return of the Jews to Israel before Jesus returns. From Michael Brown’s Our Hands are Stained With Blood.
John Owen, the greatest of the Puritan theologians, 1616 to 1683, wrote, “The Jews shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered, and brought home into their homeland.” Owens also wrote “There is not any promise anywhere of raising up a kingdom unto the Lord Jesus Christ in this world but it is either expressed, or clearly intimated, that the beginning of it must be with the Jews.”
Charles Spurgeon, in 1864, preaching from Ezekiel 37:1-10, the vision of the dry bones, Spurgeon acknowledged that the passage could be interpreted “to describe the revival of a decayed Church.” But that was not the prophet’s primary intent. “No,” Spurgeon tells us, “he was talking of his own people, of his own race, and of his own tribe. He surely ought to have known his own mind, and led by the Holy Spirit he gives us as an explanation of the vision, not—‘Thus saith the Lord, my dying Church shall be restored,’ but—‘I will bring my people out of their graves, and bring them into the land of Israel.’” In 1864, Spurgeon declared that the Jewish people would be brought back to their land!
For him, the passage was totally clear: “The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.”
Then, in his typical eloquence, Spurgeon painted this picture: “Israel is now blotted out from the map of nations; her sons are scattered far and wide; her daughters mourn beside all the rivers of the earth. Her sacred song is hushed; no king reigns in Jerusalem; she bringeth forth no governors among her tribes. But she is to be restored; she is to be restored “as from the dead.” When her own sons have given up all hope of her, then is God to appear for her. She is to be re-organised; her scattered bones are to be brought together. There will be a native government again; there will again be the form of a body politic; a state shall be incorporated, and a king shall reign. Israel has now become alienated from her own land. Her sons, though they can never forget the sacred dust of Palestine, yet die at a hopeless distance from her consecrated shores. But it shall not be so for ever, for her sons shall again rejoice in her: her land shall be called Beulah, for as a young man marrieth a virgin so shall her sons marry her. “I will place you in your own land,” is God’s promise to them. They shall again walk upon her mountains, shall once more sit under her vines and rejoice under her fig-trees. And they are also to be re-united. There shall not be two, nor ten, nor twelve, but one—one Israel praising one God, serving one king, and that one king the Son of David, the descended Messiah.”
To repeat: Spurgeon preached this in 1864. And for him, Israel’s embrace of Jesus would be an embrace of the Son of David, their Messiah, not the embrace of a foreign, alien faith. The text was indisputably clear in his view: “If there be anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land, and that a king is to rule over them.”14 Indeed, he declared, “I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough about it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this. I imagine that you cannot read the Bible without seeing clearly that there is to be an actual restoration of the Children of Israel.”
Bishop J.C. Ryle, an older contemporary of Spurgeon, also taught strongly on the restoration of the Jewish people to their land and to their Messiah, completely rejecting the idea that the Church had supplanted the Jewish people. He wrote this, imagining the conversation between a Christian and a Jew who did not believe in Jesus, with the Christian believing that Jesus literally fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies about His first coming:
“But suppose the Jew asks you if you take all the prophecies of the Old Testament in their simple literal meaning. Suppose he asks you if you believe in a literal personal advent of Messiah to reign over the earth in glory, a literal restoration of Judah and Israel to Palestine, a literal rebuilding and restoration of Zion and Jerusalem. Suppose the unconverted Jew puts these questions to you, what answer are you prepared to make? Will you dare to tell him that Old Testament prophecies of this kind are not to be taken in their plain literal sense? Will you dare to tell him that the words Zion, Jerusalem, Jacob, Judah, Ephraim, Israel, do not mean what they seem to mean, but mean the Church of Christ? Will you dare to tell him that the glorious kingdom and future blessedness of Zion, so often dwelt upon in prophecy, mean nothing more than the gradual Christianizing of the world by missionaries and gospel preaching? Will you dare to tell him that you think it “carnal” to expect a literal rebuilding of Jerusalem, “carnal” to expect a literal coming of Messiah to reign? Oh, reader, if you are a man of this mind, take care what you are doing! I say again, take care.
How sure was Ryle of these things? (Remember, he lived from 1816–1900, teaching these things decades before the modern Zionist movement came into full swing.)
“Time would fail me, if I attempted to quote all the passages of Scripture in which the future history of Israel is revealed. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Zephaniah, Zechariah all declare the same thing. All predict, with more or less particularity, that in the end of this dispensation the Jews are to be restored to their own land and to the favor of God. I lay no claim to infallibility in the interpretation of Scripture in this matter. I am well aware that many excellent Christians cannot see the subject as I do. I can only say, that to my eyes, the future salvation of Israel as a people, their return to Palestine and their national conversion to God, appear as clearly and plainly revealed as any prophecy in God’s Word.”
Robert Leighton wrote, “They forget a main point for the Church’s glory, who pray not daily for the conversion [turning] of the Jews…. Undoubtedly, that people of the Jews shall once more be commanded to arise and shine, and their return shall be the riches of the Gentiles (Romans 11:12), and that shall be a more glorious time than ever the Church of God did yet behold.”
Samuel Rutherford, “I could stay out of heaven many years to see that victorious triumphing Lord act that prophesied part of His soul conquering love, in taking into His kingdom the greater sister, that kirk [church] of the Jews…Oh, what joy and what glory would I judge it, if my heaven should be suspended till I might have leave to run on foot to be a witness of that marriage-glory, and see Christ put on the glory of His last married bride, and His last marriage love on earth; when He shall enlarge His love-bed, and set it upon the top of the mountains, and take in the Elder Sister, the Jews, and the fulness of the Gentiles!”
Samuel Rutherford, “O to see the sight, next to Christ’s Coming in the clouds, the most joyful! Our elder brethren the Jews and Christ fall upon one another’s neck and kiss each other! They have been long asunder; they will be kind to one another when they meet. O day! O longed-for and lovely day-dawn! O sweet Jesus, let me see that sight which will be as life from the dead, Thee and Thy ancient people in mutual embraces.”
Andrew Bonar in 1889, “Israel is the “everlasting nation” who are to be life from the dead to all nations. And the sure word of prophecy declares, “He that scattereth Israel shall gather them.” “I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me for ever.” “Yea, I will rejoice over them, and will plant them in their own land assuredly, with all My heart, and with all My soul.” Crowned with her fairest hope, the Church Shall triumph with her Lord, And earth her jubilee shall keep, When Israel is restored.”
Some scriptures I've found on this
According to Ezekiel, Israel is to be regathered as sinners, in unbelief, and THEN LATER God will bring them to repentance and faith.
First the regathering in unbelief:
"For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." (Ezekiel 36:24).
Then they receive the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), the new birth, the indwelling Holy Spirit.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
Verse 24 comes before 26-27. We are in between these two passage today. We must be patient. God is at work restoring his people until the whole nation is saved.
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27)
Jesus said [speaking of the Jews of his day], "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
UNTIL means it's not forever. So Jesus is saying here that the Jews will be back. They have to be Jews, not Khazars, otherwise Jesus lied. If you don't believe him, that's your choice, but I'll number myself among the two billion that believe that he told the truth.
Jesus said, "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Matthew 23:39)
So Jesus will see the Jews again and they will believe in him. Where will he see them? In Jerusalem, when he descends onto the Mount of Olives, the same place he ascended to, because the Bible explicitly says exactly that in the book of Acts, and Zechariah 14:4 must be fulfilled.
At Jesus' ascension from the Mount of Olives, the angel said to the disciples, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)
"For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem... And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives... And the LORD shall be King over all the earth." (Zechariah 14:2, 3, 9)
Was the exile in 70 AD final? No, because God had made an unconditional, unilateral promise of the land to Abraham's descendants, confirmed to Isaac and Jacob, which required no obedience on the Jews' part - it was God making the covenant with himself, and it's impossible for him to lie. (Genesis 15) The type of covenant God made (passing between cut up animals) is described in Jeremiah 34:18-19.
How do we know they would be gathered back?
"...the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, from Hamath and the islands of the sea." (Isaiah 11:11)
The first regathering was from Babylonia. The second regathering was in 1948, not only from Babylonia, but from all the nations listed here, and many more.
And this: "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." (Ezekiel 36:24).
The first gathering was only from Babylon, not from "all countries".
There's so much more that could be said about this.
Just listen to Chuck Baldwin talk about Israel. When a Christian is so critical of anyone, much less God's chosen people, that displays an un-Christ-like attitude. People that are hard on other people are hard on themselves most of all. They're still under the law even though they think they're under grace, and they don't realize it.
The whole concept of expecting obedience of Israel in order to retain the land and the blessings and the promises of God shows that he doesn't know God. God doesn't pay wages, he only gives gifts. Israel can't earn the land, it's a gift. If God can abandon Israel for disobedience, he can abandon believers for their disobedience.
Chuck Baldwin doesn't understand the depths of his own sins. The Bible clearly teaches that all man's righteousnesses are as filthy rags. That no one is good, no not one. That not even Jesus was good - Jesus said that only God is good. That man at his best state is altogether vanity. That the carnal man is at enmity with God. That if we stumble in one point of the law once in our lives, we're guilty of the whole law. Do you understand? In God's sight - not man's - if you break the smallest commandment, you're as guilty as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Caiaphas the High Priest, or King Herod, or Pontius Pilate, or Judas Iscariot, or anyone. Everyone goes to hell for what they do unless they're covered by the blood.
Every one of us killed Christ, not just the Jews or the Romans. In the Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson's hand took the hammer and hammered a spike into Jesus' hand. Whenever a Christian sins he kills Christ, over and over again, every day of his life, hundreds of thousands of times, until Jesus comes. Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords today, right now. So everytime we sin, we are telling the Lord, "No. I refuse to do what you commanded." That's a capital offense. If you can't get away with saying that to an earthly king, or even a boss without getting fired, or parents without getting spanked, or the police without getting arrested, then you certainly can't say no to the king of kings. An earthly king can make you obey. He can just send some armed guards to force you to obey or be arrested or killed. How much more is Jesus keeping track of every time we disobey him? Only the blood of Jesus will save us from his wrath on Judgment Day.
The job of Christians is to love the Jews (and all people), do good to them, bless them, forgive them, pray for them, share the gospel with them, stand with them in their suffering, weep with them in their sorrow, rejoice with them in their joys. Paul said that one day the Church will make the Jews jealous of the relationship Christians have with the God of Israel, not by criticizing them, accusing them, hating them, despising them, pointing the finger at them while we ignore our own sins, and delegitimizing their nation-state, but by the love we have for one another, the members of the body of Christ, by the joy we have in trials and tribulation, and the love we have for our elder brothers in the faith, the Jews.
America's days of lukewarm Christianity in the post-war period from the 1950's until now is coming to an end. The New World Order is taking shape, along with the rule of the Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast. The martyrdom of Christians that Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24 and that Revelation 13 talks about is coming soon. Most Christians will fall away. Only lovers will make it. Only those who endure to the end will be saved. Only those who testify about God to the world, and love not their lives to the death, will be saved.
The coming persecution of the Church will be the end of lukewarm Christianity, the materialistic, worldly church, that is deluding itself in counting on the pre-trib rapture to avoid the great tribulation. They're going through it. The rapture comes at the end of the tribulation. There's only one return of the Christ, one last trumpet, one Day of the Lord.
The end times will purify the church so its love will shine forth, make Israel jealous, and they will believe in Jesus, be saved as a nation, in the land of Israel, and then Jesus will return, defeat all the nations that come against Israel. Jesus is not coming back to an Islamic Caliphate, he's coming back to his own people. King David was promised a Son of his to be king forever, on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem. Jesus is not coming back to an Islamic Caliphate.
Modern Zionism is just as wicked as the rest of the NWO, because it's a creation of the NWO. Why would it be any better? The NWO: Europe and the Anglo-American Establishment, created the greatest evils the world has ever seen: Communism, Fascism, Nazism, Islamic Jihad, Globalist totalitarianism with it's transhumanism and massive depopulation (genocide). Why would we expect Israel to be any better, since they are a creation of the NWO?
God always turns what man intends for evil to the good. God will redeem Israel, save Israel physically, nationally, and spiritually.
Israel is a project of British Freemasonry, in order to rebuild Solomon's Temple as a Masonic "House of Worship for All Nations", the headquarters of the New World Religion, the unification of all the world's religions under the control of the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church. They couldn't pull it off when the Ottoman Turks controlled Palestine. They had to defeat the Ottomans and bring the Jews back to build the temple. That's why Jerusalem is always designated as an "international zone" in the 1937 Peel Commission partition plan, the 1947 UN partition plan, and that's why Israel has granted the Vatican national sovereignty over the holy sites. Not a long-term lease, not real estate title, but national sovereignty - it belongs to the Vatican.
The political headquarters of the NWO will be in Basra Iraq, as H. G. Wells prophesied in The Shape of Things to Come. Basra is the delta of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, the gateway to ancient Babylon and the Tower of Babel, the location of the first world government. This has powerful spiritual significance to the luciferian secret societies running the world. They hate God for interrupting the Tower of Babel and turning that fledgling world government into many nations and many different languages. Therefore, they intend to finish the job themselves in the same location.
Every world government needs a religion to hold it together, to keep the people unified. This is the purpose of Israel to the globalists, to be the site of the New World Religion. Meetings about rebuilding the temple are already taking place.
Scripture must be fulfilled. We can't change the outcome one bit. All we can do is decide which side we are on.
Chuck's position is a very dangerous one to take before Almighty God. What was Adam and Eve's original sin? Believing the devil when he said, "Did God really say not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" "Yes, or we'll die." "You won't die. Your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Chuck is saying, "Did God really make an unconditional, unilateral, unbreakable covenant with himself, to give the descendants of Abraham through Isaac through Jacob, all the land of Israel forever, with no obedience required on their part, just circumcision as a sign of the covenant, which is not a work?" "Yes, he did." Chuck: "No he didn't. He said if they kill their Messiah and get expelled from the land, they can never return as a people."
Well, who are you going to believe, Chuck or God? Chuck is calling God a liar, an Indian-giver, someone who goes back on his promises, someone who breaks his own covenant. God have mercy on Chuck. I hope he repents for his own spiritual standing with God.
Best regards,
A Reader
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Monday, we begin a 13-day discussion on this topic.
You are invited to listen and learn live.
You are invited to just watch the reruns on video.
You are invited to contribute and debate.
You are invited to post articles and just read what will likely be robust chats.
Any way you want it, you can have, you are invited.
Come join.
Tap here: https://realstevo.com/baldwin2
-Allan Stevo